Tara Gooch: From Corporate Sales Director to Entrepreneur extraordinaire
Tara Gooch explains that her experience in sales and customer service has better prepared her for a career in entrepreneurship than if she had gone straight into entrepreneurship after college. She explains that being able to sell is a transferable skill that is essential for any business, but especially for startups. She also emphasizes the importance of forming strong relationships in any business venture.
In this conversation, Tara talks about how she left his corporate job to pursue entrepreneurship. She talks about how she learned many valuable lessons from his corporate job, but the most powerful lesson was that the safe route can fail too. She talks about how staying in a comfort zone and avoiding risk can prevent people from reaching their full potential. She also talks about how toxic work environments can lead to burnout and depression.
Later the discussion is on the importance of having multiple income streams, especially when making the transition to becoming an entrepreneur.
0:00:00 Cascading Leadership: The Importance of Sales and Customer Service in Entrepreneurship
0:02:25 The Power of Sales in Entrepreneurship
0:05:08 The Power of Taking risks: A Conversation with an Entrepreneur
0:07:10 The Power of Mentorship: How One Conversation Helped This Entrepreneur Make the Leap
0:11:43 The Power of LinkedIn for Business Growth
0:14:49 The Importance of Relationship Marketing on LinkedIn
0:17:47 The Importance of Personal Branding in Business
0:21:22 The Power of Personal Branding: How Developing a Strong Brand Can Lead to New Opportunities
0:23:30 The Power of Branding: How to Position Yourself for Unknown Opportunities
0:24:41 Tara Fonseca: Stepping Out of Your Comfort Zone
So by developing a personal brand specifically on LinkedIn, really, there's no shortage of opportunities that could come to you. And it's not up to you to worry about what kind of opportunities will come to you.
So by developing a personal brand that showcases you as an individual, as a trustworthy person, opportunities start to come to you, they start to become attracted to you. So by developing a personal brand, I've been offered just in the last couple of months, I was offered a chief executive or pardon me, a chief experience officer position.
A personal brand is showcasing you and your story, but in the most professional way that builds trust. So if you're thinking on a platform like LinkedIn, first impressions, right? We get between five and 15 seconds to make a first impression.
It's kind of the same for a personal brand. So your personal brand allows people in. It allows people to see you for who you really are. There are almost 8 billion people in this world and you are completely unique.
Tara, one of the things that's really important about your brand building effort that I just called out is from mindset perspective, you need to be operating from a mindset of generosity.
Music Credit: Maarten Schellekens - Riviera
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Tara Gooch: From Poverty to Abundance - Conclusion
[00:00:00] Ethan: Previously on Cascading Leadership...
[00:00:02] Dr. Jim: It's interesting that you mentioned that your time in customer service and your time in sales built.
[00:00:08] Dr. Jim: And engine for your future success. What is it about sales and customer service specifically that you feel better prepared you for a life in entrepreneurship versus if you had skipped that and just gone that route right out of right outta college?
[00:00:26] Tara Lafon Gooch: I, feel like if if you can, sell at the corporate level and it is a challenge, right? But if you can sell at that level, you can sell for yourself.
[00:00:38] Tara Lafon Gooch: It's, really not that much of a transition. Being able to sell is a fairly transferable skill. You can take that anywhere, right? But it's more than that. It's being able to have open conversation with someone, being able to develop a relationship with someone. So yes, it started off as sales and customer service, but it taught [00:01:00] me really the foundations of building a relationship.
[00:01:03] Tara Lafon Gooch: And to me that's, the foundation of entrepreneurship. No business, especially a startup business, exists without relationships. You have to have good, strong relationships in with whatever, if it's customers, if it's business partners, if it's investors, or if it's all three. You have to be able to have open communication.
[00:01:26] Tara Lafon Gooch: And strong relationships or otherwise. Otherwise it's just not gonna work. People wanna do business with people they like and trust. And being able to form a relationship with somebody is really a key element to any business. But it's essential if you're an entrepreneur.
[00:01:42] Ethan: And now the conclusion of our conversation with Tara Gooch on Cascading Leadership...
[00:01:46] Dr. Jim: I think there's another element of entrepreneurship in general and sales in particular that you're leaving out.
[00:01:54] Dr. Jim: People think about being an entrepreneur as if it's like sunshine and [00:02:00] lollipops and you gotta have, you gotta have a cast iron stomach to deal with what that involves because. And, this is where, I was hoping you were gonna go with with the sales side of it. If you're successful in enterprise level sales or in B2B sales, that means you're failing probably 70%.
[00:02:19] Dr. Jim: If you're really, good, you're failing 70% of the time. And if you're average, you're failing 80% of the time. So there's a level of intestinal fortitude that you need to have to deal with that on a day in, day out basis. And I think that's really the the muscle that you have to build to be an entrepreneur, cuz you're still spending most of your time being told no.
[00:02:45] Dr. Jim: And if you're not prepared for 80% of your 24 hour day being told no, you shouldn't, you should get a paycheck versus working for yourself.
[00:02:56] Tara Lafon Gooch: That is absolutely true. And [00:03:00] yeah, if you've ever worked in sales, you'll understand that a hundred percent because there is a lot of failure in sales.
[00:03:07] Tara Lafon Gooch: But those, failures that you experience are just stepping stones because it teaches you something as long as you're learning from it. And I've been told no more times than I can count. But the key is, to not let it deter your next call. Not let it affect your next opportunity, not carry that with you, which is a huge skill in itself.
[00:03:29] Tara Lafon Gooch: Not carrying that weight of the failure with you, of that last rejection with you and continuing on as if it never happened. And keeping that smile on your face for the next call, even if they reject you too, , it's not.
[00:03:43] Dr. Jim: The, big thing about what sales teaches you, that's relevant to.
[00:03:49] Dr. Jim: Being an entrepreneur is that it helps you build the stomach for failure. And the quicker you can detach from the outcomes of those sales activities, the better off [00:04:00] that you can be. And really the focus should be how can I connect with a hundred percent of the market that I'm going for and just build relationships and conversations versus
[00:04:10] Dr. Jim: how do I find the 3% that's ready to buy what I have right now? I think that's a losing proposition and it'll screw with your head. If you look at, I gotta find the people that are ready to buy now. So you want the corporate route. What did you learn during the, during your, time in the corporate world?
[00:04:27] Dr. Jim: And, how did that shape some of your future decisions?
[00:04:29] Tara Lafon Gooch: I went up to a sales director and I, enjoyed it, but it was just not for me. So I, have a lot of grit and hustle just by nature, but it was all consuming. It just I wasn't satisfied. I wasn't living to my, what I would call my purpose, right?
[00:04:48] Tara Lafon Gooch: So for me, my purpose is I, need to work for myself a hundred percent. I'm a entrepreneur and will always be one. I, guarantee you what it taught me [00:05:00] was not to accept as is and not to settle for something that does not serve you. So I learned a lot. I learned how to negotiate. I learned how to talk to any customer.
[00:05:14] Tara Lafon Gooch: I learned so many powerful lessons. I learned how to cross communicate between organizational units and departments, right? So many great lessons, but one of the most powerful lessons that I learned my huge takeaway is the safe route, which I would consider the full-time job, right? The 40 hours work week, the corporate structure, the safe route can fail too.
[00:05:39] Tara Lafon Gooch: So take the risk because if you don't take the risk, you'll never get the reward. If you stay in your comfort zone and stay in that safe route where there's no risk, you'll never re really reach the full benefit of your potential. It led to burnout. It led to battles of depression, [00:06:00] anxiety.
[00:06:00] Tara Lafon Gooch: I didn't feel like it was for me. I was just constantly anxious, constantly un unsettled work just working for someone else. It just, I could feel in my nature, it just was not my path. Yeah I, remember and I was I've been in toxic work environments in the past, so I'm sure anybody listening to this has they're in separate toxic work environment story
[00:06:25] Tara Lafon Gooch: But I've been there, I've been there in the past, and I was there as a corporate sales director, and I remember calling my husband that day and saying, you know what? If I quit today will, you support my decision? And I, if I decided again, cuz our business was started during Covid, if I decide to take this full time will you support me?
[00:06:46] Tara Lafon Gooch: Do you think we'll be successful? Of course, his answer was yes, because anything he said, anything you do and you put your mind to, you'll figure it out and you'll be successful. And really, that was the catalyst that I need, the jumping point, that I need to just [00:07:00] say, all right, believe in yourself. Leave the rest behind you, leave the toxicity behind you, leave the negativity behind you.
[00:07:07] Tara Lafon Gooch: Start something yourself you can do it. And that was really the jumping point for
[00:07:12] Tara Lafon Gooch: me.
[00:07:13] Dr. Jim: I, think for a lot of people that are listening, it doesn't necessarily need to be an all or nothing equation. For you.
[00:07:21] Dr. Jim: The entrepreneurship route fit what you're looking for. One of the guests that I've had on Phil Rank, who is the CEO of Lean Alaska, he mentioned something when he was talking about his transition from military life to civilian life. Like the way that he planned it out was he's got what he calls a PACE plan.
[00:07:41] Dr. Jim: So he's got the primary plan, his alternative plan, the contingency plan, and the emergency plan. And when you think about navigating your career, I think there's an avenue for the average person to actually integrate both a W2 role and a side hustle [00:08:00] and maybe even something else into creating multiple revenue streams for themselves.
[00:08:05] Dr. Jim: So I don't want people to walk away from this thinking it's gotta be entrepreneurship and nothing, because that might be beyond the risk tolerance of a of, somebody. And, in fact when I volunteer for Strively and I do some, sessions that I teach for them on brand building and also how you should actually plan out your, work day.
[00:08:25] Dr. Jim: And one of the things that I mention is split your day. You have 24 hours in a day. So use a 12, 12 format, eight hours of it for your W2 job, and then four hours that are allocated to building or developing a, side hustle or side income stream
[00:08:42] Dr. Jim: so you have eight hours of work, you have four hours of a side project that you wanna monetize so that's 12 hours, and then you have 12 hours to like, relax or sleep or whatever else it is that you want to do. So I think if you. Regiment your day in that format, you're probably coming up with [00:09:00] at least three out of four on that pace plan.
[00:09:02] Dr. Jim: You have a primary, which is your steady paycheck, you have your alternate, which is your side hustle. You have your contingency, which is what you're building, and then the emergency is whatever happens to, that that, you've already had well established, that is your last fallback option.
[00:09:18] Dr. Jim: You decide to branch out on your own but just because you say I'm an entrepreneur doesn't mean that you're actually doing anything.
[00:09:26] Dr. Jim: So what were the, things that you did to prep and build a customer base so that you have an easy or an easier launch
[00:09:36] Tara Lafon Gooch: yes, I will walk you through that, but circling back to what you just said about multiple , income streams as well I, do wanna touch on that real quick because you can have multiple income streams within a business.
[00:09:49] Tara Lafon Gooch: So one of the first things that I did was along with identifying customers, obviously, Was to identify multiple income streams. So [00:10:00] how can I take this one business, like you say, and instead of having it just be this one stream of revenue, what other streams of revenue can I pull from? So this year that was one of my biggest mission missions was to find how many revenue streams I can get from one business.
[00:10:18] Tara Lafon Gooch: And I've identified so far i, would say between eight and 10 solid, streams from one business that I have that because of that, it was made the transition so much easier. It, you can stick with a nine to five job and have a side hustle as well, and maybe another income stream.
[00:10:41] Tara Lafon Gooch: You can be an entrepreneur, go all in and find more than one revenue stream there as well. There is opportunity again, there's opportunity. It's, there's more opportunity than I think people realize and give it credit for when you start a business.
[00:10:58] Dr. Jim: When you mention [00:11:00] gen taking a business and creating multiple revenue streams it's, basically defining what, are your product lines, and then how do I monetize these different products into different revenue streams?
[00:11:09] Dr. Jim: I, wanna swing back to the, question about you decide to launch and. Where did the customers come from? What was your plan to transition to an entrepreneur and what did you do to establish a customer base build those relationships and, do it at scale?
[00:11:27] Tara Lafon Gooch: So thankfully I have a very large network on LinkedIn. So most of our customer base has, really come from my LinkedIn network. I'm extremely grateful for the members of LinkedIn for supporting me through that entrepreneur leap, right? So most of our business has come from there, but a lot of it was also referrals.
[00:11:48] Tara Lafon Gooch: And with my husband being he was a freelance artist designer for almost 20 years prior to us officially starting our llc. So he had a [00:12:00] reoccurring book of clientele anyway, and such a strong reputation in the industry itself that it was. It was more of a, it was pretty a seamless transition. So we were very fortunate.
[00:12:11] Dr. Jim: You touched on something where you're talking about LinkedIn was a big accelerator for your customer base, but not everybody is born with a baked in network on LinkedIn. So what were some of the things that you did to build a network on that platform that can be broadly applied to any platform that your customers happen to be on?
[00:12:32] Tara Lafon Gooch: That started with. Year, a couple years ago, so I don't know how long I've been on LinkedIn. I would say maybe five and a half years or so, I've been growing it steadily like it's a job and I've treated it like it's job. I network every single day and I've done that almost every day for that amount of time.
[00:12:52] Tara Lafon Gooch: So four or five and a half years. And every week I max out my connections Every week I actively engage with others [00:13:00] posts every week I actively engage with prospects on a DM basis, not salesy, but more of hi, I wanna introduce myself not engaging with the out or not expecting an outcome.
[00:13:12] Tara Lafon Gooch: But that's how I started and how I grew it. And at the time when I started LinkedIn, Again, I was very much involved in the corporate world. I didn't know the future potential that the platform would hold for me. I had no idea, but I knew that if I grew it and connected with influential people that eventually something would, I knew I could turn it into its own machine.
[00:13:38] Tara Lafon Gooch: And that's what I've tried to do. And I think I've become fairly successful at that, taking my network, entering it into a profiting machine that helps my business and being able to leverage that.
[00:13:53] Dr. Jim: Looking at the blocking and tackling from the perspective of, hey, it's a part of your job, or it's, almost like a [00:14:00] job.
[00:14:00] Dr. Jim: That's, one aspect that I think it's important. You gotta work at it every day. Now the, thing that I will add to that is that, It's not necessary that you work at it eight hours a day to do it. In fact, usually if you're, if you are disciplined and you spend an hour a day 30 minutes in the beginning of the day, 30 minutes at the end of the day doing various things, that will give you a lot of runway to do what you need to do.
[00:14:27] Dr. Jim: And that's before we even start talking about creating content or driving content around there. But I wanna probe on that a little bit. When you're talking about treating it like a job, you mentioned some of the things that that you did, you max out your connections, you're sending direct messages all of that sort of stuff.
[00:14:44] Dr. Jim: When you look at, what does that give you as a business owner, what are some of the things that it helps establish for you as an entrepreneur that you think is important for the listeners and viewers to to, understand?
[00:14:57] Tara Lafon Gooch: The first thing I'll say is [00:15:00] it's, not necessarily the biggest number that matters.
[00:15:03] Tara Lafon Gooch: It's, a quality of the number, right? So you wanna engage with people that wanna engage with you. You wanna engage with people that are like-minded, that want, that, want to do business with you, that you have a relationship with, right? Not, just for the sake numbers. For the sake of numbers. So I learned that lesson fairly early on, that it's, not necessarily a numbers game necessarily.
[00:15:27] Tara Lafon Gooch: You do need a strong core network. But one of the most important things that LinkedIn has specifically taught me that I hope to teach others is how to really Again it's, more about relationship marketing, so doing for others, being with a spirit of reciprocity. So not sending somebody a sales EDM and just expecting them to buy from you.
[00:15:53] Tara Lafon Gooch: It's how can you serve others? And I, think if you lead with that mentality and lead with [00:16:00] that thought and that action, people are naturally more receptive to that. And that's generally how I like to form relationships. That's what I feel like I'm good at. That's my strong suit, is getting to know people, getting to know them on a personal level, but building it from a relationship standpoint.
[00:16:18] Tara Lafon Gooch: And again, that air of reciprocity. What, how can I serve you? How can we work together to build each other up to help each other grow? I think any sane person is receptive to that. Including your clients,
[00:16:33] Tara Lafon Gooch: right?
[00:16:34] Dr. Jim: You said that one of the things that you're really good at is building relationships. And the other o other element that you mentioned is operate with a servant mindset and with no expectation of reciprocity. And here's where, that's important. And I talk about this with my teams if you have a friend or if you have a group of friends and you're thinking about that interaction with that group of friends everybody's [00:17:00] willing to help everybody else out.
[00:17:01] Dr. Jim: But every friend group has that one friend. That is always asking for stuff, but then when it comes time for them to actually do something for you, they're nowhere to be found. Yeah. So when you apply that to the selling world and your interactions on any platform, if you are the person that is constantly like hitting up your network for what they can do for you, you're gonna have a hard time building a business.
[00:17:30] Dr. Jim: And I think the thing that you're hitting at that I always talk about with my teams is in business and in life, you always wanna be in a position where you're giving two or three times more than what you ask because everybody that's on any platform is on there for their own purposes.
[00:17:47] Dr. Jim: So they will you, you will buy space and earn space of their attention. If you're actively trying to promote their interests, like how, what is this person trying to accomplish [00:18:00] and how is what I know from a skills perspective going to help them advance what they want. And that's, you should always be operating from that two to three times you want to give more than you ask.
[00:18:12] Dr. Jim: And then that's how you actually set the foundation for a business relationship. And in any other kind of relationship.
[00:18:18] Dr. Jim: , Tara, one of the things that's that's really important about your brand building effort that's that, I just called out is from mindset perspective, you need to be operating from the from a mindset of generosity.
[00:18:31] Dr. Jim: What can you give that's gonna help somebody else advance their initiative? Now when we look at doing that to build the network that makes sense, but how does building a network create a brand? And when you create a brand, what does that open up for you?
[00:18:49] Tara Lafon Gooch: So first off you are an entity and just a business is an entity, right? So a business needs a brand, would you buy from a business gem [00:19:00] with, if they didn't have a logo or a website or if it was just, if it was a soda bottle, if it was just totally plain, maybe you would buy it, but probably not, right?
[00:19:10] Tara Lafon Gooch: You would think it was defective , right? It's kinda the same for a personal brand. So your personal brand, Allows people in it allows people to see you for who you really are. There's almost 8 billion people in this world, and you are completely unique, just as I am. Completely unique. Personal brand is not tapping someone else.
[00:19:33] Tara Lafon Gooch: A personal brand is showcasing you in your story, but in the most professional way possible that builds trust. So if you're thinking on a platform like LinkedIn first impressions, right? We get between five and 15 seconds to make a first impression. So we'll say the average is seven seconds, right?
[00:19:54] Tara Lafon Gooch: So seven seconds, a first impression is formed when you meet someone. The [00:20:00] same goes for those first seven seconds when you view someone's profile on LinkedIn. It's a perception and you may only get just that one chance at that first impression. So by building an established personal brand that people like, people trust, people empathize with, people relate to, creates opportunities, right?
[00:20:24] Tara Lafon Gooch: Because people are attracted to human stories. It's our evolution as a species. We like storytelling, we like learning. Our brains are hardwired for it, and we love learning about other people's experiences. Otherwise, there would be no such thing as TV's moves. We love it. So building a brand is very similar to that.
[00:20:46] Tara Lafon Gooch: It's a showcase. It's your billboard. It's who you are, it's what you do. It's why you do it. It's who you serve and it's your story. No, Two stories are the same. So by developing a personal [00:21:00] brand that showcases you as an individual, as a trustworthy person, opportunities start to come to you, they start to become attracted to you.
[00:21:09] Tara Lafon Gooch: So by developing a personal brand, I've been offered just in the last couple months I, was offered a chief executive, or pardon me chief experience officer position. That was just a couple months ago. I've been offered other business opportunities, consulting work public speaking so many different areas that honestly I never even had considered until I developed a strong personal brand that people liked and trust and wanted to do business with.
[00:21:40] Tara Lafon Gooch: So I had transparency. I've shared failures, I've shared successes, I've shared. Other people's failures and successes. I've shared motivation, I've shared inspiration, I've shared anything that can help other people because again, it's that servant mentality first. But because of that, opportunities [00:22:00] have come to me.
[00:22:00] Tara Lafon Gooch: And honestly I had a conversation with a vp of a company just this week about that same topic, how when he left his corporate job, he got 10 10 offers within that week. So by developing a personal brand specifically on LinkedIn, it really, there's no shortage of opportunities that could come to you.
[00:22:25] Tara Lafon Gooch: And it's not up to you to worry about what kind of opportunities will come to you. Trust me, they will. Like I said, I would've never thought of myself as a public speaker or a mentor or even a. Mindset coach really until this year when all of these opportunities started to be presented to me, and it started with that personal brand.
[00:22:45] Dr. Jim: One of the things that's worth mentioning about all of this brand conversation is that for some people that might seem really abstract, and I think it's important to talk through what that actually means when we talk in terms of [00:23:00] brand, it's simply talking out in the open or sharing out in the open, which is what you talked about on a regular basis, what you care about and, also how you educate and inspire the world.
[00:23:11] Dr. Jim: So that's Steve Watts's phrase to move to you. You're creating, you're building what you want to become in the open, and you never know who's gonna be watching or paying attention. But like when you look at LinkedIn, it's got millions of people on it, but only 2% are active in terms of actively
[00:23:29] Tara Lafon Gooch: 1%.
[00:23:30] Dr. Jim: Okay. Yeah. One, 1% post. But there's a lot of lurkers. So if you're not the one that's actually like sharing your experiences and, doing these things out in the open, you never get traction on building that brand component, which is how you put yourself in position to get these unknown opportunities falling in your lap.
[00:23:51] Dr. Jim: So I think that's, important. You have to be intentional about either being deliberate about posting every single day about [00:24:00] things that you're experiencing. Or you have to be deliberate about identifying the people that you resonate with and then driving the conversation forward on their posts so that eyes get drawn to you.
[00:24:14] Dr. Jim: So it's, building conversation or having conversation at scale. Or creating conversations at scale is, that's the necessary precursor to brand building. And if you do it in the open, that's how you position yourself.
[00:24:28] Dr. Jim: Tara, fantastic conversation. We covered a lot of ground, and I think in any one of those show concepts that we introduce in the beginning I could have, we could have probably built an entire show on just that one topic.
[00:24:41] Dr. Jim: So it's it's been a really fun conversation, interesting conversation before we wind things. Why don't you share with the audience, both the listeners and the viewers, what you think are the two or three most important things that people need to pay attention to when they're thinking about [00:25:00] entrepreneurship, brand building career navigation, any of the things that we talked about in this conversation.
[00:25:04] Tara Lafon Gooch: I just wanna
[00:25:05] Tara Lafon Gooch: reiterate one more time. The safe route can fail to, so life is all about risk. We're constantly changing. The only thing consistent in life is change. So embrace it. And if, it's something that you believe in, if it's something that you're passionate about, if it's something that you're good at, like my mom, right?
[00:25:24] Tara Lafon Gooch: She was. She utilized a, skill she already had and figured out how she could monetize it for her family to build her in business. The same goes for anyone watching this, show. If you have a natural skill set or ability someone else needs that, somebody else wants, that, somebody else will pay you for that.
[00:25:44] Tara Lafon Gooch: You don't have to necessarily go to school for one certain thing. If you feel like what you have is a skill set that someone else can use, figure out how to monetize it. But believe in yourself. Be brave [00:26:00] and step out of your comfort zone. And, really that's, where growth comes from.
[00:26:05] Tara Lafon Gooch: Stepping out of your comfort zone, doing something every day that scares you a little. But I'm a very firm believer in the compound effect. So every day create a little bit more action towards that goal a little bit more. It doesn't have to, you don't have to grow by leaps and bounds. You have to grow a little bit every day.
[00:26:25] Tara Lafon Gooch: But it starts with consistency. And honestly, if you display consistent action towards anything, you'll be an expert in no time. But it starts with changing your really, your your attitude changing behavior modifications watching less TV watching eating less junk food, right?
[00:26:46] Tara Lafon Gooch: Eating more healthy. But it's, those compound actions every single day that lead you to success. It's not leaps bounds, it's small actions made with consistent effort over time.
[00:26:57] Dr. Jim: I, shouldn't be surprised, but even your takeaways have [00:27:00] takeaways. So your comment about your, comment about focus on being just a little bit better each day.
[00:27:07] Dr. Jim: One of the people in my network he's sharing a panel with me on a conference. His tagline is, my focus is just trying my best to get 1% better every day. And if you think about that over the course of an entire lifetime, if every day you're 1% better or even a quarter percent better, yeah, think of, how much ground you can cover in a year.
[00:27:28] Dr. Jim: So I think that's, that, that's really solid stuff. So before we sign off, where can people find you, Tara?
[00:27:34] Tara Lafon Gooch: Absolutely.
[00:27:35] Tara Lafon Gooch: So you can find me on LinkedIn, Tara lafa Gooch.
[00:27:40] Dr. Jim: Thanks for joining us, Tara. Really fun conversation
[00:27:43] Dr. Jim: thank you for joining us and if you like this show, make sure you leave a review and leave some comment comments, give us your feedback.
[00:27:51] Dr. Jim: Looking forward to having more great conversations. On Cascading Leadership.