Part 2 of our conversation opens with the idea that people learn best when they are teaching others. This is because they are more likely to pay attention and retain what they are learning. The conversation also mentions the idea of an observation log, which is a way to track what someone is learning. This can be helpful for quality control purposes.
The focus of the conversation is on how important it is for salespeople to learn from their wins and losses in order to improve their skills. The problem is that many sales teams operate with a low win rate, which makes it difficult for salespeople to learn and improve. The solution is to focus on the journey, not the outcome, and to help salespeople to separate their definition of success from an outcome.
The conversation discuss the importance of having a clear goal, or win, in mind. The goal should be something that is attainable and that you are passionate about. Having a clear goal will help you to stay motivated and focused on the process of becoming great. The process is more important than the outcome, and you can control the process by being a little bit better than yesterday's version of yourself.
We talk about how focus on pipeline volume over win rates, and how sales enablement is a lagging indicator. We also discuss how to break down a big concept into smaller pieces.
0:00:00 Onboarding Series and Observation Logs: A Key to Effective Learning
0:03:14 The Importance of Learning in Sales
0:05:16 The Benefits of a High-Performance Team
0:06:30 Sales Enablement: The Importance of Quality Pipeline and Win Rates
0:08:22 The Benefits of Different Learning Styles in Sales
0:09:44 The 80/20 Rule in Sales: How to Focus on What's Working
0:15:26 The Power of Going First: Lessons from a Sales Expert
0:17:12 The Benefits of Rethinking Your Sales Strategy
0:18:49 The Power of Podcasting in Business
The first takeaway is to take some responsibility for your own learning journey. If you're waiting for someone else to do it for you to put something onto a silver platter or to have a new team to be recruited.
The trigger event is looking at their activity on LinkedIn and then focusing your engagement across that smaller group of people that are most active and then advance the conversation and build a relationship with those people and bring them in.
And then your job is to iterate in that you're doing more of what's working and less of what's not working. And so I think as it relates to sales, that is one of the most important concepts to start with because it sets the stage for just a broader understanding of what you're trying to get at.
So our five to eight times in terms of quality pipeline over what your target goal is and focusing on that, assuming win rates are going to fall within a certain rate.
James Daverman, who was one of our first guests, talks about winning the day as an exercise and continuous improvement. So where I was going with that is look at win rates, but I actually put more focus on pipeline volume.
Music Credit: Maarten Schellekens - Riviera
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Amy Hrehovcik: Real Revenue Enablement - Conclusion
[00:00:00] Ethan: Previously on Cascading Leadership
[00:00:02] Dr. Jim: Let me see how I make this work. Or how can I do this in a way that that, I'm figuring out what works for me. So it's, it just caught my attention when you mentioned it, because he had actually, he writes about, Pretty
[00:00:15] Dr. Jim: significantly.
[00:00:16] Amy Hrehovcik: I wanna add to that because I'm remind, so I do this as well, I call them observation logs and I, when I've designed onboarding programs, incorporate an observation log for the new person for them to keep track of what they're learning for that exact reason.
[00:00:31] Amy Hrehovcik: But more specifically, or more to the point, there's this thing called the learning pyramid. And the learning pyramid breaks down the different tactic. Or the different types of, let's say, learning scenarios and assigns of re retention percentage to it. And I don't even remember what the breakdown on, but I remember the base of the pyramid, right?
[00:00:50] Amy Hrehovcik: 90% of what is learned with the intent to teach other people is retained. I'm gonna [00:01:00] say that again. 90% of what is learned with the intent to teach other people. Is retained. This is why I love like the idea of incorporating like a, an onboarding series for people that have just gotten through onboarding, right?
[00:01:17] Amy Hrehovcik: And so at the, if someone knows that they're finishing onboarding and they're gonna talk about it or whatever, and they're gonna teach others coming behind them what it felt like and blah, blah, blah, they're gonna be paying closer attention and they're gonna retain what they're learning at a 90 percentile.
[00:01:32] Amy Hrehovcik: Same thing. But whatever, there's a bunch of different ways that, that, that plays out. And so the observation log Just the day, once a day after each session. And, think about the, quality control aspect that, that, comes with having access to the, these observation logs.
[00:01:50] Amy Hrehovcik: If I'm trying to iterate on my onboarding programming or whatever it is that I'm doing, I can then go back and revisit that experience and revisit [00:02:00] the aha moments that I had. And then go from there. Dr. Jim or Jim, I've got one for learning to podcast like it all the tools and the da, like I, so I'm with Justin Welsh on this in a big, way.
[00:02:11] Amy Hrehovcik: I can't wait to go back and find it.
[00:02:13] Ethan: And now the conclusion of our conversation.
[00:02:15] Dr. Jim: The, onboarding series and the observation log that's, pretty key. And I'm thinking about my onboarding experiences. There's most of the organizations that I've been at had no sort. Next step after you go through the onboarding process. That's assuming they had an onboarding process that reinforced the learning through teaching.
[00:02:34] Dr. Jim: And, when you look at some of the social dynamics of it, and this is I don't know the exact source of this, but there's been studies done in terms of if you have families that have multiple kits or and, you look at the middle children, they actually tend to be. The most advanced because they're learning from not only their older siblings, but they're teaching their younger siblings what they're learned too.
[00:02:58] Dr. Jim: So you have I don't [00:03:00] know if this is necessarily anecdotal, but when you look at. What you were talking about the, learning pyramid and 90% of the learning that's retained occurs when those people going through the learning process have to teach it to somebody else. It it, parallels those studies on middle children and how they learn from a competency perspective.
[00:03:20] Dr. Jim: So that's, an awesome call out. The,
[00:03:21] Amy Hrehovcik: Can I add
[00:03:22] Amy Hrehovcik: one thing to this too that I think is a, big part of the. And the way that we operate as sales floors right now, it's the, like people when they're learning the importance of the little wins along the way is really important. And. So right off the bat, like we don't we, need to do a far better job as a profession in helping our team to separate their definition of success from an outcome.
[00:03:46] Amy Hrehovcik: And so to bring it back to the journey, which is not even this is, this was the setup for what I was gonna say. But then the other piece of it is that most I don't know most whatever, but like I think of win rates on qualified opportu.[00:04:00] Or conversion rates for if it's a, we're talking about an sdr.
[00:04:04] Amy Hrehovcik: If your team is operating at a 20% or below win rate, you are literally setting them up to fail 80% of the time, and you will. Same thing with the insane activity. Metrics without linking back to results of any kind. Don't even get me started on the digital pollution that our profession generates for.
[00:04:27] Amy Hrehovcik: For what? But that's another piece of it as well, is figuring out how to elevate the collective mind share so that we can do a better job of converting the opportunities that are in front of us, which will absolutely. Enhance the learning potential. And I equate this to as an important thing to ask.
[00:04:48] Amy Hrehovcik: While, interviewing, because the equivalent is if you're on a team that's operating with an under 20% win rate, like that's what, let's say JV basketball, right? And all the way up through, I think it's very difficult to get above [00:05:00] 75%. And maybe it's just me that I was never able to do it, but I, stayed at 75 for enterprise deals towards the end actually for the majority.
[00:05:07] Amy Hrehovcik: But I mentioned that because. It's a lot more fun to learn and grow and try new things with peers or whatever. I've, let me connect it back. It's the playing on a professional basketball team as opposed to the JV high school team. And so that's a, I think is a massive part of the bigger picture. The bigger story.
[00:05:29] Amy Hrehovcik: What, is a win? What is a, what is the end goal? What. What does great look like? And, I think a bar, the bar is very low there.
[00:05:36] Dr. Jim: It's, interesting that you reference win rates. I, have a different perspective and this is probably a conversation for another day. I pay more attention, and this is in line with separating the process from the outcome.
[00:05:46] Dr. Jim: A great book on that is chop wood carry water which talks exactly about that. And, the topic or the, theme of the book is fall in love with the process of becoming great. And this is one of those things. A lot of what [00:06:00] exists out in the world of work is focused on well the end result.
[00:06:04] Dr. Jim: And especially in sales, you're not in control of the end result. What you can control is your consistent, sustained execution of the inputs required to reach the desired outcome.
[00:06:17] Amy Hrehovcik: And, you can control being a little bit better than yesterday's version of yourself.
[00:06:21] Dr. Jim: Yep.
[00:06:22] Dr. Jim: Yep. Win the day. James Davermann , who was one of our first guests, talks about winning the day as a, as an exercise and continuous improvement.
[00:06:30] Dr. Jim: So where I was going with that is I, look at win rates, but I actually put more focus on pipeline volume. So are five to eight times. In terms of quality pipeline over what your target goal is and that and, focusing on that assuming when rates are gonna fall within a certain rate
[00:06:50] Amy Hrehovcik: has been yeah, I think focusing too hard, especially sales enablement. This is a lagging indicator and we're absolutely looking at the conversions Earl much earlier in the pipeline, [00:07:00] but I don't think that they're zero sum. I use that example as a. Just to highlight at a broad perspective, it's gonna be easier to motivate your team to learn when.
[00:07:09] Amy Hrehovcik: They're winning more often than losing .
[00:07:12] Dr. Jim: Yep. Before we wind down the conversation, I want to touch on the topic of not boiling the ocean. Like how do you foundationally build out anything that you want to learn and break it into smaller pieces? So I, think you talked about how you use building blocks into your efforts.
[00:07:29] Dr. Jim: So what are some of the things that, that, when you're looking at a big concept and you're talking about Conscious incompetence. Oh my God, that's a big target and I'm at the bottom of the mountain. What are some things that can be done at the desk level or as a mindset perspective to break down the insurmountable thing into smaller pieces?
[00:07:47] Amy Hrehovcik: So as a sales enabler, it's hard not to be effective at this point because most of the ways that we're teaching and training SDRs do not involve. The building blocks, right? It's. We're gonna teach 'em how to [00:08:00] be cogs, right?
[00:08:00] Amy Hrehovcik: And so I, actually, my third episode, Jim, on my show was called It's Day Con Cracks, the SDR Talent Code. And we go deep into my methodology. And so for anybody that's interested in that topic, like I would point you directly at that episode and day, was able to, I think we're talking about a 300% improvement in monthly performance and a month and a half insane.
[00:08:22] Amy Hrehovcik: But when. What I would say to listeners right is, that there's no wrong answer, and I would encourage you to pick the one that you wanna learn first, right? The one that kind of gets you most excited. But, with the knowledge that it requires a little bit of insight into how you personally learn.
[00:08:39] Amy Hrehovcik: And so I'll generally go through an exercise with somebody about tell me when the last time you learned something and then what did you do? And I'm listening for their, learning style. Plural styles, plural. So that I can help point them at resources that align with that style and as well as I'm gonna co-create their learning journey with them by asking them where they want to [00:09:00] start.
[00:09:00] Amy Hrehovcik: And then creating a, soft schedule a around it. And so not to say that this is feasible at scale. Okay. However, I think the co-creation piece of it and just understanding that people. Like letting them choose which medium they want to learn from. Take video as a perfect example, right?
[00:09:17] Amy Hrehovcik: When you're learning from a video, it's great don't get me wrong, but you're, if you're creating content that's just videos, you're tethering the learning to the desk, which is the opposite in sales, especially as you move up the ranks through strategic and enterprise sellers are on the move. And there, there's that piece of it to consider.
[00:09:32] Amy Hrehovcik: And then I, love starting with the 80 20 rule. In sales. This is my favorite thing to teach sellers, especially at the beginning because I'm, as an ADHD person, hypersensitive, I was like focused very hard on my energy and my time knowing that this is the most precious, non-renewable resource that I've got.
[00:09:52] Amy Hrehovcik: And what, like for anybody that's listening and, I actually just did an episode about this one too, and, but the 80 20 rule, you're gonna get [00:10:00] 80% of your results from 20% of your activit. 80% of the revenue is coming from 20% of the clients, 80% of the revenue is coming from 20% of the sellers.
[00:10:09] Amy Hrehovcik: 80% of the crashes are coming from 20% of the bugs. 80% of the features that are used in what you're selling contribute to 80 or 20% of the features contribute to 80% of the usage. Okay? But anyway, so your job as a seller at the beginning is to identify what your 20 percenters are, the actions that you are taking.
[00:10:30] Amy Hrehovcik: And then with the ability to connect it to the results that you're getting, and then your job is to iterate in that you're doing more of what's working and less of what's not working. And so I think as it relates to sales, that is one of the most important concepts to start with because it sets the stage.
[00:10:50] Amy Hrehovcik: For like just a broader understanding of what you're trying to get at. Is it about the activity or is it about the results? And then does it, But now we [00:11:00] can talk about how we track that. And I, don't care. It could be hashtags on a bar nap or whatever, but this is one of the downsides of these turnkey dashboards we've, lost the connection to the science of what we're doing.
[00:11:13] Amy Hrehovcik: And so when, that has happened, teaching the fundamental. So people becomes very difficult. And I'm reminded, who is it from at Lambo Field with, oh Lombardi, right? Gentlemen, this is a football, It's the fundamentals. You start with the fundamentals.
[00:11:26] Dr. Jim: So I want to, tie in that 80 20 concept to something that's really tactical and it can be applied to any number of things.
[00:11:33] Dr. Jim: But if you're if, you're an sdr, if you're an account executive and you have a territory, And you're trying to figure out how do I tackle this territory with a thousand contacts in it or 10,000 contacts in it? The practical application is go and, and we already know that people aren't gonna respond to email at a high rate and respond to phone calls at a high rate.
[00:11:54] Dr. Jim: But you're gonna still do those activities because some will respond and you look at other channels that are [00:12:00] active. And LinkedIn is a great example. If you're prospecting and you have a thousand names, Look for the names of people that are most active in your buyer group on LinkedIn, and then start following and engaging with their content because those are gonna be the most likely out of that cohort that are gonna engage with you, and you can bring them into your e ecosystem and position them to potentially enter into a selling conversation.
[00:12:25] Dr. Jim: So that's the practical application. So if you have a thousand. You look for the ones that are most likely to respond. The trigger event is looking at their activity on LinkedIn and then focusing your engagement across that smaller group of people that are most active, and then advance the conversation and build a relationship with those people and bring them in.
[00:12:45] Amy Hrehovcik: Yes. And. This could also be the two lists against each other. Let's say you're targeting sales leaders. The first list is sales floors that have grown by 500% in the past year. And the second list is organizations that you know, [00:13:00] have a new marketing director and you can test your response rates on.
[00:13:04] Amy Hrehovcik: Either of those lists, right? It could be time of day, it could be the day of the week, right? You can test also known as an ab test. Anything. And frankly, as far as I'm concerned at the beginning, the most important thing is learning how to do those tests. And then I'll take it a step further. It's learning how to think.
[00:13:21] Amy Hrehovcik: I think it was Clayton m Christensen. This is actually a quote in my summary section on my, on LinkedIn that, that but my leadership style is best described with this quote. I didn't tell him what to think. I taught him how to think and then he reached what I thought was the correct decision on his own or her own.
[00:13:39] Amy Hrehovcik: And that is not something that we see on sales floors, especially SDR floors. And, then when we look at the. We're promoting up through these cycles. Like this is the type of individual that's moving through. And so I'm far more interested in teaching people how to logic and think through the role at the beginning.
[00:13:59] Amy Hrehovcik: And also [00:14:00] for, I'm, This is actually, this is the episode I'm working on now, so I can't believe you just mentioned it, Dr. Or Jim, that there's, if you're looking to start or establish a relationship with somebody that's maybe not posting on LinkedIn, Run a Google search for content items. Listen for, listen to a podcast they did, and reach out to them and say, Thank you.
[00:14:17] Amy Hrehovcik: This was my favorite part. Look at this speaking circuit and see who's speaking where. If it's something that's coming up, Oh, I saw that you're doing this this looks great. How did you get to this? But, either way, thank you for putting, taking the time to put it together. There's a tremendous amount of things that you can do to create and establish a relationship, even if somebody is not.
[00:14:36] Amy Hrehovcik: Married to LinkedIn as our, universe tends to
[00:14:40] Amy Hrehovcik: be.
[00:14:40] Dr. Jim: That's, a fantastic call out. And I think the fundamental principle is you're in, this age where you have so much information that you can find out about people like Google is your friend. So can, you can
[00:14:52] Amy Hrehovcik: set the damn alerts like when you're, if you're thinking, now think about it from the, so this is my ADHD and the hypersensitivity.
[00:14:58] Amy Hrehovcik: I am highly [00:15:00] aware of the impact of the senses because I feel everything and probably like a four or five times stronger than, average. And what I mean by that is as a content creator, or maybe you just did a, guest episode or whatever, and this person is a target of a high priority account. If you set your Google.
[00:15:16] Amy Hrehovcik: You will be notified the moment that it hits. And in that moment, that is when this person is the most excited. Yeah. And so you can use timing to your advantage there too.
[00:15:26] Dr. Jim: Yep. And you know that, that gets into relevancy plays and, actually where I was going with what, you just mentioned, the reason why you set these things up, and this is fundamental to being an effective salesperson.
[00:15:38] Dr. Jim: You are not the star of their story. You're a plot device, so how are you looking for information that helps you reinforce? Their belief that they're the hero in their own story, and that's critical to sales. And where oftentimes a lot of salespeople go wrong is that they make the story about us or our product, and we lead with that.
[00:15:59] Dr. Jim: Now, you [00:16:00] don't lead with that. You lead with the customer and something that they did that impacted you and, you go in the world that way. And I think that's critical to you. That's one of the implications that I took out from it, man. I could I could talk with you forever. But we we have stuff to do So before before we wrap up what are the big takeaways from your experience in this conversation that you want people in the audience to walk away from? So that's question one. And it could be two to three takeaways. And then the other question is, what are you working on and where can people find you?
[00:16:34] Amy Hrehovcik: The first takeaway is to take some responsibility for your own learning journey. If you're waiting for someone else to do it, for you to put something onto a silver platter or to to have a new team to be recruited, you're gonna be waiting for a long time. And so go first. Be the change that you want to see and push yourself and talk.
[00:16:58] Amy Hrehovcik: That will have a [00:17:00] ripple effect around you like you cannot possibly imagine. The second is that things are changing, right? The buyers Jim referenced being aligned with what the buyers are saying, what the if, you haven't read some of these buyer reports from the past year and a half, like you are missing out.
[00:17:17] Amy Hrehovcik: I have nev they are irate at this point, and. I rate across the board and then I marry that. I think it was the state of sales, it was the Salesforce and they were asking sellers how good of a job they're doing at connecting with people. And it's something crazy, like 78% or we are, I am great at connecting with buyers.
[00:17:34] Amy Hrehovcik: And then the buyers are like something 92% saying that we report feeling like a number. And so I would challenge. To rethink what you're doing and why you're doing it, and who says that the results can't be better, And as leaders with the knowledge that sometimes our experience can be the thing that hurts us the most, right?
[00:17:57] Amy Hrehovcik: Because what worked for us? What got us our [00:18:00] results, what got us to where we are, that can often be the hardest thing to let go of. And I understand that it's scary the idea of letting your people express a little bit of autonomy and creativity. But that's, the only, that's the only way.
[00:18:15] Amy Hrehovcik: And then where can people find me? What am I working on? I was, we were just talking about, I've got a new who murdered the deal murder mystery experience. So for anybody that's looking to shake up their ASM or sales kickoff meeting or just a team building exercise while also learning about some of the risks that can.
[00:18:33] Amy Hrehovcik: Introduced into emotion from the team perspective. That's, so I'm really excited about that. And then the other one is just, yeah, building out these, podcast series for teams. And again, to help people to democratize the voices on the team, right? But whether this is a success series for with your top performers or conversation with buyers or anything and everything in between.
[00:18:57] Amy Hrehovcik: This medium is not [00:19:00] going. I don't wanna say it's not going away. The impact, the effectiveness of this medium is no longer up for debate. And so now it's just a matter of how and where we're going to incorporate it. But I think Jim and I can talk about how hard it can be at the beginning and that I'm just, I'm excited Jim.
[00:19:15] Amy Hrehovcik: I'm excited to work with clients that are excited about trying new things, are excited about. Change and are excited about empowering their people as human beings, who then also generate a significant amount of, revenue.
[00:19:29] Dr. Jim: That is a fantastic wrap up, Amy appreciate you sharing that. And Justin Oh, oh, and my show.
[00:19:35] Dr. Jim: I'm sorry. Oh my gosh. I, was getting, I was gonna recap all of that. So just just so we're, absolutely clear, you can find Amy, obviously on LinkedIn. She's part of the Sell without Selling Out community. So definitely connect with her on that and you can join the community, which is a fantastic place to be.
[00:19:52] Dr. Jim: She is the host of the Revenue Real Hotline, and
[00:19:55] Amy Hrehovcik: which
[00:19:56] Amy Hrehovcik: you can find wherever you listen to your podcasts. And it's [00:20:00] firstname.lastname@example.org. And that 80 20 episode that I was just talking about is a quick nine minute clip, and the feedback has been incredible. So anybody that wants to dig into learning that for themselves or for their team, I'm sorry, Jim, I've got excited.
[00:20:12] Amy Hrehovcik: I can't believe I forgot about the damn.
[00:20:14] Dr. Jim: I wasn't gonna let you forget. So there are a lot of different ways and specifically to that 80 20. Episode that rolled out, it's nine minutes and it's got eight takeaways out of it. And I am not BSing when I say that. Definitely check out Amy.
[00:20:29] Dr. Jim: If you don't have a direct line, you can connect with me on LinkedIn and I will do an intro and all that sort of stuff. But Amy Hrehovcik .
[00:20:36] Amy Hrehovcik: Oh my gosh.
[00:20:36] Amy Hrehovcik: That was really good.
[00:20:37] Dr. Jim: Thank you for joining us. This was a phenomenal conversation and packed with so much information. So I appreciate you hopping on and sharing with us all of your expertise.
[00:20:48] Dr. Jim: You can find us in terms of cascading leadership. Everywhere. We are on LinkedIn, we are on YouTube, we are on TikTok, we are on Facebook.
[00:20:57] Dr. Jim: So make sure you are. Liking, [00:21:00] subscribing, following, sharing, telling your friends because this is a completely organic build and . Thanks for joining us, and we will talk to you next time.